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 Post subject: I AM
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 9:20 pm 
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(Browsing for the question atheists cannot logically answer)

:D I AM :D

MY QUESTION
remains: (from an atheistic worldview?) IF THERE IS NO GOD, THEN WHAT IS THE LOGICAL REASON FOR TRUSTING LOGIC TO EVALUATE EVIDENCE GIVEN BY THOSE WHO CLAIM GOD EXISTS?
(For the synopsis of the argument see) http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.asp ... &tid=41764 If you wish to post there please tell them JC says HI and loves them.

New or following this thread - started this in the about.com atheist forum to test an argument with atheists.
The argument's axis is - atheists have no logical reason for relying on the logic they use to argue against God's existence.

A BASIC INTRO
Re: the question, " does God exist? " We take an atheist view.. (God does not exist). If we show that the (no-God) view is false, then by negation, God exists...
Either you HAVE a belief in a god or gods or you don't.
_______________________________

ARGUMENT PART 1 ( the atheistic view shown as a syllogism )
1) If God does not exist, then there is no logical reason for relying on logic. (Modus Tollens)
2) There is a logical reason for relying on logic. (Modus Tollens)
C Therefore it is not the case that God does not exist or (God exists ( by negation.) Q.E.D.

This brings an atheist to the question - What is the logical reason for relying on logic ? And that brings them to see that they believe in what they have not proved (only faith).
They argue against God, because they want sufficient logical evidence, but they do so with the very tool they cannot or will not give sufficient logical evidence for.
(Hypocrisy?)

(So, they ACCUSE Theists of doing that which they do, shame...shame...shame. How inconsistent?)
____________________
Of course, no "logical" (answer) has come forth from any atheist (as they usually just evade, mock, or run). The argument is simple.

THE PROBLEM: (Atheists want a logical reason, but, being inconsistent, can't give it.)
Atheists cannot give "sufficient" logical evidence for the existence of the immaterial logical laws they "believe" should be used to examine evidence for the existence of the immaterial God.
THE QUESTION: (Why, from an atheistic worldview?) ( 1st paragraph above)
All I am asking is (from the atheistic side) is for a logical answer > ???

_________________
1) If no God, then no logical reason to rely on logic.
2) There is a logical reason to rely on logic.
C So not true God does not exist

IF No-GOD, then what LOGICAL REASON for TRUSTING LOGIC To EVALUATE any EVIDENCE provided that proves GOD EXISTS?


Last edited by jesuschrist on Fri May 20, 2011 9:40 am, edited 6 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: I AM
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 9:13 pm 
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IF THERE IS NO GOD, THEN WHAT IS THE LOGICAL REASON FOR TRUSTING LOGIC TO EVALUATE EVIDENCE GIVEN BY THOSE WHO CLAIM GOD EXISTS?

That is what we have to use what else can we use.

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There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies? Richard Dawkins


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 Post subject: Re: I AM
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 8:20 am 
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Thanks for your post. Welcome to the I AM thread.

krim: That is what we have to use what else can we use.

JC: Answering logic is all we have only begs the question. How do you know it should be trusted. YOU basically said logic exists so that is why we trust it.
Do you see?

_________________
1) If no God, then no logical reason to rely on logic.
2) There is a logical reason to rely on logic.
C So not true God does not exist

IF No-GOD, then what LOGICAL REASON for TRUSTING LOGIC To EVALUATE any EVIDENCE provided that proves GOD EXISTS?


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 Post subject: Re: I AM
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 2:10 pm 
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It seems obvious that logic exists.

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There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies? Richard Dawkins


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 Post subject: Re: I AM
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 8:57 pm 
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K: It seems obvious that logic exists.
JC: Just as it seems obvious God exists. The question is:
IF THERE IS NO GOD, THEN WHAT IS THE LOGICAL REASON FOR TRUSTING LOGIC TO EVALUATE EVIDENCE GIVEN BY THOSE WHO CLAIM GOD EXISTS?

In other words, why do you think it is right to employ logic as the tool to make judgments about evidence for God when your logical reason that you gave was "That is what we have to use what else can we use".

Would you just as readily accept my statement "God is all we have" as sufficient evidence for trusting God.

_________________
1) If no God, then no logical reason to rely on logic.
2) There is a logical reason to rely on logic.
C So not true God does not exist

IF No-GOD, then what LOGICAL REASON for TRUSTING LOGIC To EVALUATE any EVIDENCE provided that proves GOD EXISTS?


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 Post subject: Re: I AM
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:21 am 
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Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

His Jesus, I thought you were going to end the world?

Hilarious. I have to tell my friends Jesus came, but instead of ending the world he is doing a forum.


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 Post subject: End of the world
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 10:04 am 
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Welcome to the I AM thread.

As you have guessed I am not "THE" Jesus.

The thing about the guy who predicted the rapture was quite a contradiction. The Bible says or that particular event that no man will know the day or hour, but H. Camping said that didn't apply to him.

I personally would have be happy to have had the event happen, but I was pretty sure it would not, just because he predicted the day as if he knew the day or the hour.

_________________
1) If no God, then no logical reason to rely on logic.
2) There is a logical reason to rely on logic.
C So not true God does not exist

IF No-GOD, then what LOGICAL REASON for TRUSTING LOGIC To EVALUATE any EVIDENCE provided that proves GOD EXISTS?


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 Post subject: Re: I AM
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 5:42 pm 
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I would like thank those who have visited the thread from:
Kansas City, Missouri, United States
Torrance, California, United States
Indianapolis, Indiana, United States
Overland Park, Kansas, United States
Washington, District of Columbia, United States
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Auckland, New Zealand
Kansas City, Missouri, United States
West Fork, Arkansas, United States
Mountain View, California, United States
Chula Vista, California, United States
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Hornchurch, Essex, United Kingdom
Bronx, New York, United States
Portland, Oregon, United States

About half of you directly jumped directly from about.com.

I love all you guys and hope you will post If you have any trouble registering don't worry, I will be glad to help you. Of course you already know that you cant give a logical reason for using trying to use logic.

_________________
1) If no God, then no logical reason to rely on logic.
2) There is a logical reason to rely on logic.
C So not true God does not exist

IF No-GOD, then what LOGICAL REASON for TRUSTING LOGIC To EVALUATE any EVIDENCE provided that proves GOD EXISTS?


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 Post subject: Re: I AM
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 5:58 pm 
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I am having trouble posting. Were you upset that no one was ready when you came for them?


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 Post subject: To NO Soul
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 6:06 pm 
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I do not see any reason you are having trouble from my end. Let me know if you have further problems.

Because someone interprets or misinterprets the Bible, does not affect me. God exists and will one day judge the world.

Currents events happening in the world (including alse prophet Harold C) do point to us getting closer to that time.

_________________
1) If no God, then no logical reason to rely on logic.
2) There is a logical reason to rely on logic.
C So not true God does not exist

IF No-GOD, then what LOGICAL REASON for TRUSTING LOGIC To EVALUATE any EVIDENCE provided that proves GOD EXISTS?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 8:31 pm 
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JC: Just as it seems obvious God exists. The question is:
IF THERE IS NO GOD, THEN WHAT IS THE LOGICAL REASON FOR TRUSTING LOGIC TO EVALUATE EVIDENCE GIVEN BY THOSE WHO CLAIM GOD EXISTS?
In other words, why do you think it is right to employ logic as the tool to make judgments about evidence for God when your logical reason that you gave was "That is what we have to use what else can we use".
Would you just as readily accept my statement "God is all we have" as sufficient evidence for trusting God.

No. I would need more proof than you saying so. I think logic should be used because that is what I use.

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There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies? Richard Dawkins


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 Post subject: Re: I AM
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:45 am 
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krim: That is what we have to use what else can we use
krim: I would need more proof than you saying so. I think logic should be used because that is what I use.

JC: The answers you give for WHAT IS THE LOGICAL REASON FOR TRUSTING LOGIC TO EVALUATE EVIDENCE GIVEN BY THOSE WHO CLAIM GOD EXISTS? amount to:

- I evaluate evidence for God trusting logic because I use logic. (circular).

If that is your reasoning (logic is logic), then you should allow the same for God. Ready here it is using your logic.

God exists because God is....

_________________
1) If no God, then no logical reason to rely on logic.
2) There is a logical reason to rely on logic.
C So not true God does not exist

IF No-GOD, then what LOGICAL REASON for TRUSTING LOGIC To EVALUATE any EVIDENCE provided that proves GOD EXISTS?


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 Post subject: Re: I AM
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:37 am 
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Why does it matter? Looks like a standoff.

Logic is because I use it.
God is because you believe it.

You don't win either...

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There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies? Richard Dawkins


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 Post subject: Re: I AM
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 10:57 am 
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krim: Why does it matter? Looks like a standoff. Logic is because I use it. God is because you believe it. You don't win either...

JC: It matters because it shows your reason for using logic is circular.
IE - The reason an atheist uses logic is because he uses logic.

If you are denying evidence for God based on what is logical, then your view is inconsistent, as you have no logical reason for using logic to do so.

Your view it is fallacious. You need to change your view.

God being the reason to trust logic transcends your circular view.

Pretty simple.

Love
JC

_________________
1) If no God, then no logical reason to rely on logic.
2) There is a logical reason to rely on logic.
C So not true God does not exist

IF No-GOD, then what LOGICAL REASON for TRUSTING LOGIC To EVALUATE any EVIDENCE provided that proves GOD EXISTS?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 8:34 am 
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How do you know God exists?


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 8:47 am 
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NoSoul wrote:
How do you know God exists?


It is as obvious as the air we breathe. I know He exists because without Him life would be meaningless.

_________________
1) If no God, then no logical reason to rely on logic.
2) There is a logical reason to rely on logic.
C So not true God does not exist

IF No-GOD, then what LOGICAL REASON for TRUSTING LOGIC To EVALUATE any EVIDENCE provided that proves GOD EXISTS?


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 5:58 pm 
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jesuschrist wrote:
NoSoul wrote:
How do you know God exists?


It is as obvious as the air we breathe. I know He exists because without Him life would be meaningless.



That might be all the evidence you need. I need something a little more tangible.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 6:20 pm 
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NoSoul wrote:
jesuschrist wrote:
NoSoul wrote:
How do you know God exists?

It is as obvious as the air we breathe. I know He exists because without Him life would be meaningless.

That might be all the evidence you need. I need something a little more tangible.


See if this helps, how do you know that tangible things you see is "not" tangible evidence for God.

Do you have some logical reason that makes you know that God does not exist and that what have observed is not caused by God?

_________________
1) If no God, then no logical reason to rely on logic.
2) There is a logical reason to rely on logic.
C So not true God does not exist

IF No-GOD, then what LOGICAL REASON for TRUSTING LOGIC To EVALUATE any EVIDENCE provided that proves GOD EXISTS?


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:37 am 
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See if this helps, how do you know that tangible things you see is "not" tangible evidence for God.

Do you have some logical reason that makes you know that God does not exist and that what have observed is not caused by God?

I can't say I know a god does not exist or that a god did not cause what I see. I just do not believe one does.

What evidence do you have that one does?


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 Post subject: Re: I AM
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:44 am 
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jesuschrist wrote:
krim: Looks like a standoff. Logic is because I use it. God is because you believe it. You don't win either...

JC: It matters because it shows your reason for using logic is circular.
IE - The reason an atheist uses logic is because he uses logic.

If you are denying evidence for God based on what is logical, then your view is inconsistent, as you have no logical reason for using logic to do so.
Your view it is fallacious. You need to change your view.
God being the reason to trust logic transcends your circular view.


How's that?

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There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies? Richard Dawkins


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:47 am 
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NoSoul wrote:
Do you have some logical reason that makes you know that God does not exist and that what have observed is not caused by God?

I can't say I know a god does not exist or that a god did not cause what I see. I just do not believe one does.

What evidence do you have that one does?


I am starting to think JC's doesn't have any.

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There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies? Richard Dawkins


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 Post subject: Re: I AM
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 9:07 am 
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I would like to thank all the guests who have recently visited, who appear to have jumped from atheistic sites:

Verona, Wisconsin, United States
South Portland, Maine, United States
Biggar, South Lanarkshire, United Kingdom
Woodbury, Connecticut, United States
Manchester, United Kingdom
Exeter, Devon, United Kingdom
San Francisco, California, United States
Lexington, Kentucky, United States
Dallas, Texas, United States
London, United Kingdom
Atlanta, Georgia, United States

Atheist or not you are welcome to join the discussion and if you have a logical answer for the question (see first post on this thread)

I have talked to many atheists and so far all their answers have shown they have no reason to be deny the evidence for God....

_________________
1) If no God, then no logical reason to rely on logic.
2) There is a logical reason to rely on logic.
C So not true God does not exist

IF No-GOD, then what LOGICAL REASON for TRUSTING LOGIC To EVALUATE any EVIDENCE provided that proves GOD EXISTS?


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 Post subject: Re: I AM
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 9:34 pm 
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As Christians from Cusanus to Hegel have taught us, God is the point at which opposites coincide. To our limited worldly perspective, a circle is an infinite line with no straight segments. And a straight line is an infinite line with no curved segments. But from God's infinite perspective, these opposites coincide, so that the line and the circle are no longer opposed. Likewise, in God there is no logic or illogic. Both to him are equally present. So there is no reason to think that logic derives from God any more than nonsense does.

Christians require more illogic than atheists do. Miracles, by definition, are events which cannot be explained through either standard deductive or inductive cause-and-effect explanations. Revelation, also, is information that is true yet is not derived from logical or empirical sources.

Atheists, if they are knowledgeable about such things, do not insist on eternal laws. They know that inductive reasoning is useful -- even necessary -- for daily life, but that there is no guarantee the laws of nature that have always worked in the past will continue working. There is no logical or empirical proof that gravity will continue to operate tomorrow. We assume it probably will, but this is not faith in a religious sense, this is just usefulness.

Systems of formal logic always work because they are man-made. They operate because the symbols we use for logical problems have been defined by people. There is no number 3 in nature. But people have decided that the character "3" represents a certain concept. When used with the characters "+" and "=" and "6", we can make a logical sequence "3 + 3 = 6." This is always true because the symbols in the sequence are created and defined by people. How do we test it? By comparing it with other sequences of symbols that are created and defined by people.

Many sentences operate in the same way. The sentence "A bachelor is an unmarried man" is always true, for logical reasons. It is always true because of the definition of the words. There is no need for supernatural agency here in order to enforce the consistency. Such sentences are true or false based on combinations of human-made terms. Indeed, if you believe in God, you may believe that only God can violate logic. But an atheist doesn't need God to see logic as consistent.

The premises in your syllogism were "If God does not exist, then there is no logical reason for relying on logic." But I have shown that your premises are false. Therefore, we can have no confidence in the syllogism's conclusion.


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 Post subject: Re: I AM
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:17 am 
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Los wrote:
... no reason to think that logic derives from God any more than nonsense does.

...Miracles, ... cannot be explained through either standard deductive or inductive cause-and-effect explanations. Revelation, also, is ...is not derived from logical or empirical sources.

Atheists, if ... knowledgeable ..., do not insist on eternal laws. ... inductive reasoning is useful -- even necessary... but ... no guarantee the laws of nature that have always worked in the past will continue working... no logical or empirical proof that gravity will continue to operate tomorrow. We assume it probably will... this is not faith in a religious sense... just usefulness.

Systems ... work because they are man-made. ... the symbols in the sequence are created and defined by people. How do we test it? By comparing it with other sequences of symbols that are created and defined by people.
... Indeed, if you believe in God, you may believe that only God can violate logic. But an atheist doesn't need God to see logic as consistent.

The premises in your syllogism were "If God does not exist, then there is no logical reason for relying on logic." But I have shown that your premises are false. Therefore, we can have no confidence in the syllogism's conclusion.


... are to reduce clutter
Thank you for your post. You made interesting remarks, but I do not see that you have shown the premises false. You did give an thoughtful opinion.

Re: Premise - -"If God does not exist, then there is no logical reason for relying on logic."

You statement, "no reason to think that logic derives from God" is only an unproven assumption which you gave by way of analogy which you feel is authoritative.

You argue that you "do not insist on eternal laws", having "no logical or empirical proof" to "guarantee" they "will continue to operate tomorrow".

While a Theist can argue "I have logical reason to rely on logic, laws etc." Since you cannot rely on logic, but also call it "necessary" I logically see that as a contradiction and must reject your opinion as being inconsistent.

REGARDING your opinion that Miracles and Revelation can't be explained standard deductive or inductive cause-and-effect explanations or logical or empirical sources.

That is only because you hold to an unproved and false assumption that God does not exist. Since logically, God "does" exist, then there is a logical source and reasonable explanation for Miracles and Revelation.

God being able to override nature explains Miracles whereas Revelation is simply something that is revealed from God.
_________
If God does not exist, then there is no logical reason for relying on logic."
So, unless you can provide a sound logical reason for relying on logic (which it appears you have already admitted you cannot), then the conclusion GOD exists remains sound.

Thank you for your post I hope we are understanding one another. I suggest you tell God you want to know Him and be his good child.

_________________
1) If no God, then no logical reason to rely on logic.
2) There is a logical reason to rely on logic.
C So not true God does not exist

IF No-GOD, then what LOGICAL REASON for TRUSTING LOGIC To EVALUATE any EVIDENCE provided that proves GOD EXISTS?


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 Post subject: Re: I AM
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:21 am 
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jesuschrist wrote:
I would like to thank all the guests who have recently visited, who appear to have jumped from atheistic sites:

Verona, Wisconsin, United States
South Portland, Maine, United States
Biggar, South Lanarkshire, United Kingdom
Woodbury, Connecticut, United States
Manchester, United Kingdom
Exeter, Devon, United Kingdom
San Francisco, California, United States
Lexington, Kentucky, United States
Dallas, Texas, United States
London, United Kingdom
Atlanta, Georgia, United States

I have talked to many atheists and so far all their answers have shown they have no reason to be deny the evidence for God....


Why and how are you posting where we are at? I feel exposed.

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There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies? Richard Dawkins


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